Curse

Hanuman li Tosh · Nov 02, 2005, 03:54 PM // 15:54

it does however say that the game is skill based. toa is a reward for skill, is it not?

aron searle · Nov 02, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

My guild is half US and half Euro. (approx)

Please explain how we can all get into fow on demand with only 5 server changes.

(directed at all WaW defenders).

Snowman · Nov 02, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanuman li Tosh

it does however say that the game is skill based. toa is a reward for skill, is it not?

your right.. and I'll go one better

It actually clearly says on the box:

"Game Experience may change during online play"

ie, one minute you may go to fissure, one minute you may not.

A-NET have all angles coverd as do most on-line games since jeesus was born!

Now lets stop this petty discussion about "getting what you pay for" and concentrate on the far more interesting subject of Favor stats.

DreamCatcher · Nov 02, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanuman li Tosh

it does however say that the game is skill based. toa is a reward for skill, is it not?

It is indeed not a reward for skill.
WaW is a reward for having superiority in numbers.

Hanuman li Tosh · Nov 02, 2005, 10:15 PM // 22:15

have you ever even been to the hall? what does strength in numbers have to do with it? you fight one or 2 teams when you make it in and even if both of the other teams are of the same server thay are not allies.
lets say europe is already holding.
scenario 1:
america vs america vs europe

if the europe team is skilled, it will hold unless one or two of the other teams is more skilled or the other teams gang up on them.

scenario 2:

america vs korea vs europe

if the europe team is skilled, it will hold unless one or two of the other teams is more skilled or the other teams gang up on them.

ive been to the hall and ive been ganged up on to lose the alter. it had NOTHING to do with my teams server, and everything to do with the other teams wanting to eliminate us. it has happened to me when i was playing for america and europre.

if they opened up a server that held 8 people in siberia, and 8 players joined that server, they would have the same chance of winning the hall as any other team from any other server of equal skill.

Arathorn5000 · Nov 02, 2005, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

To me this last week has further underlined the weakness in the WaW system.

Two weeks ago we had a region that seldom had access to the areas of the game they had paid for and that had been the case for several months.

Now we have a system where for a week or so the largest player base in the game is being denied access to those areas that again they paid for.

.....

Time for the WaW link to go.

Shan.

Are you kidding me?! Why do you even bother with these stats, if you are just going to spin whatever results you get into your own opinion about how you don't like WaW?

past two months:

"See look at my pretty statistics, WaW isn't fair because only players on the american server get to access 2 bonus PvE areas"

-But Shanaeri, nothing is keeping Europeans or Koreans from competiting in, and winning, the HoH as much as they want. We told you this the last time you posted the same thing too.

"No, american server has more people and automagically that means they're going to hold HoH more. I don't want to PvP, but I want to reap the benefits for top-level PvP. Worlds at War is a failed concept."

-It doesn't have anything to do with how many players are on the server, it matters which server can put an 8-player group into the hall and win. We agree that it's strange to give a small PvE reward to top-level PvP, but that's a-net's deal. It is not a failed concept by any means.

now:

"As you can see by my pretty graph, favor times have almost perfectly evened out. By this we can see that WaW is a failed concept, because most of the players play on the American servers, and now they can't enter two bonus PvE areas."

-....you can't be serious. Shall we ignore that this absolutely conflicts with your past few months of opinionated reasoning? You're just grasping at straws now, it's amusing that you can post what you did with a straight-face. Arenanet has been completely vindicated by these results, as it proves that everyone has an equal ability to hold favor.

If you don't like that PvE areas are the rewards for PvP play, post in the sardelac sanitarium area as a game suggestion. In fact, find where someone else has undoubtedly already posted the same thing and agree with them there. But do yourself a favor and stop gathering this data if you're simply going to spin it the same way no matter what the data says.

smurfhunter · Nov 02, 2005, 11:49 PM // 23:49

actually, volume does matter. its just kind of obvious that a zone with more players has a better chance of winning. in a way, its good if the zone with the most players in it wins the most - this ensures that more people are happy.

as a billion people said before, europe has language problems. thats why they used to win less, and thats why alot of people left.

tbh the last time i entered uw or fow was... a month ago? two? but i vividly remember the annoyingness of waiting... waiting... oh em gee ___ has won for america! goggo!

Shanaeri Rynale · Nov 03, 2005, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Arathorn5000

Please help me understand why you are against, in principal at least in allowing everyone access to all of the game as and when they have to time or desire to?

Please let me have logical, well thought out reasons and it will help all of us.

Roza · Nov 03, 2005, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Not being able to acces FoW and the UW all the time is actually fun, for most people, even if they do not realise it. Thinks you cannot do or that hinder you are an essential part of a game's challenge. This keeps these places a little special and mysterious for most players. It also connects PvP with PvE and makes people in one region feel connected. For those that set out to farm the UW and the FoW for their fissure armour, this may be a bit of a drag, but that armour is mostly a prestige object and so making it relatively hard to get (due to the favour part of the game) will at to it's prestige value.

The argument that Americans form the largest player base and therefore should have more access to the FoW and the UW makes me laugh. If you have the largest player base, then you should also be able to win favour more. And only an american could come up with something like "I have paid for it, I should be able to go there all the time." You turn legalistic materialism into a religion.

You did not pay for it, you paid for a game in which you can SOMETIMES go into the FoW and the UW (which are only extra parts of the game, not part of the main mission in any case).

In any case I am glad that the myth of European players being the worst in the world is now being dispelled.

Thanks for the figures.

DreamCatcher · Nov 03, 2005, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roza

...You did not pay for it, you paid for a game in which you can SOMETIMES go into the FoW and the UW (which are only extra parts of the game, not part of the main mission in any case)...

It's not about the "SOMETIMES", it's about the "I GET MORE ACCES NOT CUZ IM BETTER AT PVP, NOT CUZ IM BETTER AT PVE. THE SOLE AND ONLY REASON I GET MORE ACCESS IS CUZ IM ON THE AMERIKAN SERVER" argument.

The only way this problem could truely be resolved is by scrapping the limited access altogether.

I like the limited access aswell, but the way things are right now it limites access more for 1 person then it limits access for someone else.

Arathorn5000 · Nov 03, 2005, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Arathorn5000

Please help me understand why you are against, in principal at least in allowing everyone access to all of the game as and when they have to time or desire to?

Please let me have logical, well thought out reasons and it will help all of us.

I'm not against that. I've said many times that I find it silly that PvE areas are a reward for PvP. However, I do not like seeing people calling it a "failed concept". There's nothing actually wrong with the way it's set up. It's just the way arenanet wants it. That's why I think you should post in the game suggestions area of the forum, instead of trying to 'prove' somehow that it's not fair.

Shanaeri Rynale · Nov 03, 2005, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Thanks for the reply Arathorn.

I've also considered the 'It's the way AN' want it reply for a while and I think that because AN has changed so much due to what people want (cape toggles, special events, Economu fixes etc) then something like the favor system that affects every player in the game should also be subject to change should it, like the old economy system shown not to be working right. Hence the stats

Tbh i've not gone back and checked but i'm pretty sure i'm right I dont recall calling it a failed concept, just a good idea that in practice is'nt working out.
In particular the PvE, PvP link.

I think what i'm seeing here is that we kinda agree but for different rationales.

Regards

Shan

Fantus · Nov 03, 2005, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

The game is about Guilds, if you dont get a guild and take it into the HoH to try win the favour for your region then you are waiving the right to go to FoW or UW.. that fact that you can without doing this is value for money.

if you cant win HoH with your guild then its just the same as paying to enter a competition which you lose.. again, you pay for the oportunity, not to be guaranteed the rewards either way.

I tell you a secret that you might have overlooked...:

There is both a PvP and a PvE aspect in the game. And... *gasp*... you can play both aspects of the game with guilds!

I will reverse your statement to make it more clear how wrong it really is:

"If you can't bothererd to play PvE with your guild, you shouldn't have a single elite skill for your PvP toons."

Do you remember that GW actually WAS this way?

Do you also remember that Anet changed it to make the game more accessible to players who love PvP and didn't want to play PvE?

Hostestly, I have absolutely no idea why the link from PvE into PvP got removed (skill/item unlocking by PvE only), but the link from PvP into PvE is stil there (Worlds at War system). The Worlds at War system is probably the most annoying feature ever implemented in a computer game. Usually in a computer game your success (and here: your access to higher level content) is dependent on YOUR performance. WaW made it dependent on the performance of OTHER people. As a PvE player you have absolutely no control whatsoever on when you will be able to enter UW/FoW. Which sucks. I want to earn access to those area MYSELF and not be dependent on others. And don't give me that "go win HoH" bullshit, because you all know very well that large portions of all PvE players don't want to PvP, just like large portions of all PvP players don't want to PvE.

Making access to UW dependent on people winning HoH is just as ridiculous as making access to Tombs dependent on people winning Hells Precipice.

smurfhunter · Nov 03, 2005, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

Making access to UW dependent on people winning HoH is just as ridiculous as making access to Tombs dependent on people winning Hells Precipice.

now THAT Is one hell of an idea

i would LAUGH if i got a little message saying "palanoobs team was defeated by Undead Rurik for the 8th straight time. tombs is now closed for the weekend"

Shanaeri Rynale · Nov 03, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

LOL, dont give them ideas

Snowman · Nov 03, 2005, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

There is both a PvP and a PvE aspect in the game. And... *gasp*... you can play both aspects of the game with guilds!

omg, some people just dont get it even tho its written all over the main website, your right in that a PvE aspect DOES exist, but it certainly isnt what the game is MAINLY about.

I'll also tell you a secret which you may not know, or you probably do know it just hasnt sunk in yet..

If you read A-NETs description of the game you will notice they refer to it as a COMPETATIVE online role-playing game. CORPG... FoW and UW is NOT competative, these are merly rewards for competative success.

The game is also called guild WARS..

wars between guilds!....Guilds at war!....war = fighting... fighting other guilds .. competative!!!... get it into your head..... you have world championships... you have ladders you have consistent balancing of skills to ensure fair competativness.. (has it sunk in yet?)

wake up people... its competative, its wars between guilds... ITS A PVP GAME!!!!!

thats why there is only 20 levels,

thats why sucess in the HoH is rewarded with access to further RPG elements,

thats why people get bored of the game after completing the rpg and refuse to play pvp.

Thats why they have Guild of the week... not, RPG character of the week..

thats why they bundled teamspeak and a headset with the collectors, these are pvp tools..

STOP thinking of the game as an RPG with pvp elements, and start looking at the game as PVP with rpg as an extra.

You will then realise why A-NET do it like this.

remove the mental block you have... everything that A-NET does with Guildwars is to encourage you to play PVP.. the rpg is there as a reward, something to do when you want a break from pvp... or you can start with the rpg as a way of training for the PvP.

If you chose to ignore the pvp, then you will get bored, and you WONT have access to the new content.

Yes the RPG is very complete, very nice.. brilliantly laid out so much so that people can and will spend months and months playing it and never consider pvp at all...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

I will reverse your statement to make it more clear how wrong it really is:

You cant reverse it because its always been a CORPG, its never been an MMORPG... pvp has always been the number 1 element. rpg has always been secondary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

"If you can't bothererd to play PvE with your guild, you shouldn't have a single elite skill for your PvP toons."

Do you remember that GW actually WAS this way?

yes, and do you remember how many bitter complaints there were because of it?.. remember how many people were leaving the game because of it? so much so that they changed it because PVP is what the game is about NOT the GRIND of rpg.

so they introduced Faction...

remember the complaints about that... again, so much so that the had to increase the ammount you get...

Guilwars has and always will be focusing on keeping the pvp community happy way before the rpg.

again, thats why sorrows furnace came AFTER they introduced the faction, thats why Chapter 1 will be released UPTO (and possibly more) that a whole year later!

I love the rpg, I really do.. but A-NET want global competativness and thats why they will never change WaW. (ok they might alter it but never remove it)

I rest my case.

DreamCatcher · Nov 03, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

As far as i see it, Guild Wars is an online game played by many people.
These peope are needed for Anet to make money.
many people that will be buying Chapter 2 are most likely more interested in what realy happened to Gwen then in whatever new and cool PvP options chapter 2 might have to offer.
Many of the cuztomers of Anet are in fact PvE only players.

And the fact that GW has always been a PvP game doesn't nessesarilly mean that this is how it will remain.

Anet has PvE customers to keep happy aswell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Guilwars has and always will be focusing on keeping the pvp community happy way before the rpg.

If Anet knows what's good for them this will change

It may be a PvP game by name and/or setup, but the fact is that, as it is now, it's also a PvE game.

there's PvE players using TS in Fissure (a PvE area), proving my point that people don't buy the collectors edition just so they can be more competitive in PvP

STOP thinking of the game as a CORP with pve elements, and start looking at the game as an online game with PvE and PvP rolled into 1 single game
The fact that there is PvE and PvP is 1 of the main reasons GW has such a large player base

GW will never become a primarilly PvP game, ever

Fantus · Nov 03, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

omg, some people just dont get it even tho its written all over the main website, your right in that a PvE aspect DOES exist, but it certainly isnt what the game is MAINLY about.

Show me a SINGLE QUOTE from any developer that shows that PvP is more important to A-Net then PvE. It's not, of course. GW is a game that caters to both aspects equally. If it didn't, there wouldn't be a PvE section at all, don't you think?

Yes, they DO advertise the PvP aspect in GW. Rightfully so, because in GW, PvP and PvE are EQUAL while in other ORPGS, PvP is usually nothing more than an appendix to PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

If you read A-NETs description of the game you will notice they refer to it as a COMPETATIVE online role-playing game. CORPG... FoW and UW is NOT competative, these are merly rewards for competative success.

Nobody denies that PvP is an important aspect in GW, but it's not the only one.

Quote from the GW FAQ:

"Guild Wars is a global online roleplaying game. Players can engage in cooperative group combat, in single player adventures, or in large head-to-head guild battles. "

The word "cooperative" indicates that there is not only PvP in GW - but even more the "single player adventures" would be a really funny addition for a PvP game...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

The game is also called guild WARS..

yes, you spelled the game's title correctly

Neverwinter Nights is called Neverwinter Nights despite it's neither played in the city of Neverwinter all the time nor exclusively at night. So what exactly do you wish to prove here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

thats why there is only 20 levels,

So? Does a successful PvE RPG require more than that? If yes, why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

thats why sucess in the HoH is rewarded with access to further RPG elements,

No, it's not. This is the most funny aspect of the WaW system at all - that it rewards OTHER people for your work. People who win HoH don't jump out to enjoy their opportunity to go into UW. They stay in Halls and try to defend it. Probably most of the people winning HoH don't even CARE about that so called "reward". And most people receiving the "reward" don't care about how they got it, too. THIS is the most important reason why I consider WaW to be utterly broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

thats why people get bored of the game after completing the rpg and refuse to play pvp.

Wrong. I know many persons playing exclusively PvE from the day of beta events and still enjoying the game despite they never played a single round of Arenas, let alone other forms of PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Thats why they have Guild of the week... not, RPG character of the week..

Which is probably why PvE guilds can become GotW, too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

thats why they bundled teamspeak and a headset with the collectors, these are pvp tools..

*laughs*

No, a lot of PvE guilds use TS, too. They use it more for social chatting of couse, but they still do it (we're a PvE guild, and we HAVE a TS server...).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

STOP thinking of the game as an RPG with pvp elements, and start looking at the game as PVP with rpg as an extra.

No, I won't. Not unless a dev clearly says that it's what you think it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

remove the mental block you have... everything that A-NET does with Guildwars is to encourage you to play PVP.. the rpg is there as a reward, something to do when you want a break from pvp... or you can start with the rpg as a way of training for the PvP.

Yeah, the "Helloween update" was certainly the biggest PvP event ever...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

If you chose to ignore the pvp, then you will get bored, and you WONT have access to the new content.

Many players enjoy both aspects equally (I do). That still doesn't mean that PvE and PvP have to be linked in a crappy and totally broken way (aka Worlds at War).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes the RPG is very complete, very nice.. brilliantly laid out so much so that people can and will spend months and months playing it and never consider pvp at all...

Cool, you just proved your own statements wrong!

Yes, you are totally and utterly right: There are both PvP and PvE aspects in the game and you can enjoy both of them independently - which again is why WaW is a broken idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

You cant reverse it because its always been a CORPG, its never been an MMORPG... pvp has always been the number 1 element. rpg has always been secondary.

Repeating wrong statements doesn't make them any more true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

yes, and do you remember how many bitter complaints there were because of it?.. remember how many people were leaving the game because of it? so much so that they changed it because PVP is what the game is about NOT the GRIND of rpg.

so they introduced Faction...

remember the complaints about that... again, so much so that the had to increase the ammount you get...

Yes, the complaints were justified. Just in the same way as the people arguing against WaW are right, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

again, thats why sorrows furnace came AFTER they introduced the faction, thats why Chapter 1 will be released UPTO (and possibly more) that a whole year later!

Or maybe it had something to do with the fact that the SF update was more complex and took more time to complete???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I love the rpg, I really do.. but A-NET want global competativness and thats why they will never change WaW. (ok they might alter it but never remove it)

Maybe. People tend to stick with their ideas and inventions even then if they are completely and utterly wrong. The responsible designer at Anet who came up with WaW probably defends that crappy idea of his every single day...

So maybe they will stick to that utterly broken system, who knows. But maybe someday they will listen to all the people arguing for changes just as they listened to the people who wanted to have faction.

(sorry for the long post....)

crimsonfilms · Nov 03, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

I am sorry. I disagree with Shanaeri.

Access to UW or FoW does not have to be automatic. It is an optional section. You might as well argue that Fellblades to be sold or a collector's item.

Your stats only support the idea of world at war - the dominating region tends to be the most populated and/or skilled.

Fantus · Nov 03, 2005, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

Access to UW or FoW does not have to be automatic.

I don't think anybody wants that. But it would be nice to be able to EARN it yourself instead of having to rely on other people earning it for you.